Based on the prophecy of the Incas, we are living in the period of its manifestation; namely the period preceding the appearance of the Golden Age. But things in our world seem very difficult. People suffer. And the situations that make them suffer seem entrenched. How will this new age emerge?
dJuan – It depends on the point of view. If you start to see the dark and heavy things, you will see everything as dark. But if you take a look in the other direction, you will see a lot of good news around you. Like, having peace in the European Community for the last 70 years –this is a miracle. Then, having an age in which the two big powers, like Russia and the U.S., who were fighting: they are fighting for values –not because of human egoism, this is a progress. We are starting to exist in another age. The Catholic Church is speaking with the Muslims and Jewish –and people in Tibetan Buddhism are being open to make connections with Christianity… someone can read the book about the Living Christ and Living Buddha. It depends on what you look and you will receive what you are looking for. For me, it is probably the best moment in the history of the humanity: everybody agrees that democracy is the best way to lead, and we are paying attention to the poor people, for the first time, because (until now) the poor people did not matter.
So you think that all these situations will drive to a happy end.
dJuan – Well, the Greek problem is just a question. To solve questions we have our brains. You have to figure out the solutions, and that’s it.
What will the Golden Age of the Prophecy be like? Is it a historical necessity? Can people nowadays understand this necessity?
dJuan – History is a result of our commitments. History is not something that is closed. We do not believe in destiny. What we can see is what could come next, and then focus and create the conditions for the emergence of that. The point in which the history reached a turn is the French Revolution, and after the French Revolution there were these values: Freedom, Equality and Brotherhood. In a certain way, the capitalist world developed Freedom, Democracy, this kind of values – in the other way, for a certain time USSR generated the society in which Equality was the fact. But until now we neglect the other side, the French Fraternity, the Brotherhood or Sisterhood. Probably this is the new target for the humanity, and our Prophecy speaks about that. The first thing in our Prophecy is that “all humans are children of God”. Of course we have different gifts of our father God and if we just agree to interchange that with generosity, we will generate the Holy Paradise on Earth – but this is something we need to decide, as people, as collectivity; to seek and find for the direction which will take us to live in a real world of Brotherhood.
So, we know the problem very well, as we experience this problem… but it is maybe rather difficult for us to take the right decision.
dJuan – In a certain way, this is related with the natural process of development. The natural process of development of the human consciousness. From the beginning of the arrival of human beings on planet Earth, we are enlarging our consciousness following several steps. And apparently, we arrive to a level which is related with wisdom and politics… Wisdom as of King Solomon’s –he is the archetype of that- and the age of wisdom is related with something specific in the spiritual development: it is the transition from the Monotheism to the level of the Mystic. And what is the difference between those two? In the first you believe in only one Mighty God. In the other, you need to meet him. And after you meet him, He is going to improve your life – and as a result of that you are going to enlarge your consciousness. This is a natural process. And of course this is the natural process which generated across the history of the humanity the Charismas, the people who really orientated like Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Moses, Lao Tzu, Confucius etc… all these big human beings were related with that kind of large and open human consciousness.
In those great masters through history, we can find uniqueness of personality. But how can we imagine that this could happen collectively?
dJuan – If you take the story of Jesus Christ, he started as a single person. Then, enlarged to twelve, then –according to the Bible- he enlarged to 500 during the Pentecost, and the numbers were growing and growing. Today we have 1,2 billion Christians in the world. Anyway, there is a very smart German sociologist, Max Weber, he is the only sociologist who is speaking about this kind of human beings, the extraordinary human beings…
… the Charismas…
dJuan – The Charismas. And he found something amazing. There are people who, for several circumstances, grow beyond the level of consciousness of their time and society. And they are the teachers of the humanity; they educate the rest of humans. But when they teach, the people reduce them to their own level. In that way, the spread of the teaching is a transformation of the quality of the teaching of the master to quantity. Now, there are a lot of Christians but you cannot find one on the level of Jesus Christ. You have a thousand of Buddhists but you cannot find a Buddha today. This is a transformation of the quality of the founder to quantity. Another sociologist, Roberto Carneiro, discovered that when you spread something to the limits, the quantity will start to change to quality again. It is the law of circumscription which Carneiro explained. And today, every other tradition is touching the borders of the world, and the borders of its capacity, because this is going to find the borders and limits of another strong tradition. And the only way for any strong tradition is to recover the quality. And this is not only what they need to do; this is what is going to happen. You can see it. The tremendous opening of the Buddhist Tradition after HH the Dalai Lama came out from Tibet – now he is carrying a universal message for humanity, for tolerance and love etc., something is happening in the Catholic Church after the Vatican’s inside revolution, now you see the results today: one Pope who is inviting Muslims and Jewish to the Vatican. This is something totally new. Then you find a leadership, like Martin Luther King’s JR or Nelson Mandela’s after he was in jail, in which people use peaceful ways to generate new regimes. Probably the future teachers will follow this way. One of the main things today is how world will become totally off war. You cannot find today a reason to make war. Because we know everybody loses in a war, nobody wins.
One might think that this would lead to a new generation of great personalities? So people have to be re-educated in order to follow?
dJuan – What I am suggesting is how the circumstances and the messages which were spread across the world and the limits of Earth by itself, generate the circumstances to propel humanity up. You are not going to start the process of education, we just need to see the direction in which we are moving and be conscious about that, be open to these big messages which are here. Who can be against the message of the patience of Buddha? Nobody who can be a little reasonable can be against that. Who can be against the message of love of Jesus Christ? Nobody who can be a little smart can be against that. Who can be against the message of providence of Mohammed? If you take a look in the big message of the Islam, it is the trust in providence. Trust in the will of Allah, because the will of Allah is going to be that. Nobody can be against that. If you believe in any kind of God, you know that -in the end- the will of God is going to be that.
Most people have been trained to believe that we came to life with the burden of a sin. In the West we call it the “original” sin, in the East other names have been given to the guilt carried by man. Is this an excuse for the problems of our life thereafter? What is it like to live without it?
Iván – In the traditions who talk about the original sin, there is a solution for the original sin: it is the baptism. When you are baptized, your original sin is forgiven, so you are clean again. The problem is that people do not know the traditions so well. This should be the end of feeling guilty or “improper” in the world. But anyway, in these traditions which have this approach to reality, this has a function: to create consciousness. To feel guilty about something, is because you have a level of consciousness of what is happening and you have a connection with yourself, and it is telling you that you can improve that. Guilt is not a good energy, but it is easily solved in action. If you start to do something in that direction, you will not feel guilty anymore. In any case different traditions tell you in different ways how you need to make some steps, and that you need to take some action in order to get better, to improve yourself, your life. You need to take actions, because you cannot wait for things to just happen. Our tradition is even stronger into that direction. It encourages you to take, as soon as you can, responsibility for your life, and start to make steps. But any way, like any other tradition, it encourages you to make steps and that is what can change things, and what can change the life of the people. So, those things are not right or wrong in an absolute way. We can say that it is not compatible with our way of thinking or our way of seeing the things, but they have a function. And as they belong to a different tradition, at least they need to be respected and honored. Of course we all have particular ways to do things, but all these traditions look for the best for the people. They try to guide people through their personal development and, if it is possible, to the Spirit.
Is the Andean tradition older than the Incas era?
Iván – Yes. You can track the roots of the Andean Tradition to very-very early times and you can see how people had been creating culture, since very early times. The first civilization in the Andean space is called Caral, and it took place 2300 years BC, it was the first time that people had been organized in a complex society; and when you do that you can start to do important things for your people. They built temples and the first cult of the fire started. It was both: a cult of the fire, and it seems to be a cult related to the couple, of the sacrality of the couple. And the most important temple of Caral is a spiral temple which in the centre had a fire that burned in continuation. The fire was kept there for ritual purposes. So you can track the tradition there, it started very early – and then there is a continuous evolution. And I can tell you that the last step of the cult of fire is, in a way, the cult of the Sun. And then it becomes more advanced, and we arrive to the cult of the Punchao. In the Inca times this cult had been transformed and it touched a metaphysical level, because Punchao is the spirit who lives in the Sun; so we arrive in giving the material factor something more, something beyond. This is already pointing to a higher level of spirituality. But you can track many important factors across the longtime of evolution. The Inca kingdom starts in the 10th century. The Inca empire starts in 15th century. The Inca empire lasts for one century, but this was not only that. The culture was evolving for much longer before that.
What about the people who lost some of the links of their tradition? Like, the Greek people… Is there a way to recover them in a way? I know that you managed to uphold your tradition…
Iván – When you have big roots, like the Greek people, or the Andean people, there is a big chance, because you have a variety and quality and powers, and ways, in which you can recover them. So you can go back to your roots to look for your values, for the important things. It does not mean that you are going to go back to your past, because you cannot do that – you should never attempt to do that. But when you look back, for the qualities and the values that were there in the past, in your tradition –and you are lucky to have big roots like us, and important roots – then you can use these values in order to create something new. Then, in this case, when you reconnect with the values of your own tradition, you can create what is called “a renaissance”. So, it is taking all these things to the future, in a new way.
“To create something new” – what exactly do you mean by that? Because something new will not be “the authentic ancient tradition”.
Iván – For example, in Europe you did not have peace for 2500 years. Since Sparta and Athens, Europeans have been fighting with each other for millenniums. So, what is new? The peace, that the E.U. has created, that has never been existed in that space. That is new. But it is linked with all the values of Greeks and Spartans, which are to take care of your people. But in this case, your people is not only the Spartans or the Athenians. Now the people, your people, are the Europeans, and you take care for all. And if you do that, you create peace inside your boundaries. The fact is that your consciousness level is growing, because before you considered as your people only the Athenians or the Spartans, but today your people are all the Europeans, more than 300 million people. This means that things are evolving and you are doing something new, but using some of the values of the past. If you will try to go back and make war between the towns like in the past, that will not be evolution, that will not be new, so it is useless.
In the tradition of the Andes, we invoke the spirits of vital energy. For example, the spirit of water. All people use water, we have it within us. Why is it important that we invoke its spirit? Is there a difference between two people when one invokes the spirit of water and the other has never done so?
Iván – We mentioned before the relationship with fire, that people have. First we use the fire, but in a certain point we start to honor the fire, because we start to find some importance in the fire. With the water it is exactly the same. We all have water, we all need to drink water, and we all are aware of the water. But your consciousness can grow when you have a deeper understanding on things. If you start to consider that in the water there can be a spirit – We call it mama-Unu, it is a female spirit of the water, and it is all the waters: the water in the clouds, the sea, the rain, the hail, the snow, the rivers and the lakes and the springs, but it is also the water in your body. If you are able to consider the spirit of the water, you will be able to perceive that there is a connection between you and all the factors in Nature. So you will start to have connections with it and eventually you will start to have a Communion with water. What is the big problem of the water today? Some rivers are polluted; some places have no water or are not clean. But today, things are better than 50 years ago. This means that people are doing something about it, we are cleaning our rivers. They are not yet cleaned, but soon they will be. But when you feel that you have a spiritual connection with water, you will start to do better things with it. The biggest problem with world in the future will be the scarcity of drinking water. And if you are not connected in a spiritual way with the water, this will create wars, but if we attribute to the water with spirit, then we are going to handle it with more care –and maybe with more generosity –to provide water to every person in the world, which is a critical factor, it is a very important part in our life. Consciousness and spirit can always make things better.
Would you like to comment on this?
dJuan – Well, recently Emoto showed something very beautiful about this. If you deal with water as a person and you respect it, the water is going to be crystallized nicer. This is the research of Emoto and he proved it. It means that with an attitude of love and respect to the water, we can create something in the water. And prove it. Then, if you consider water as a holy factor, a holy being, a goddess, you are going to deal with water with a lot of respect, and your relationship with water instead of being a cold impersonal relationship, will be a nice relationship like the one of the children with the mother, which is a loving relationship.
What was the role of astronomy in the Andean tradition?
dJuan – Like everywhere, the first function of astronomy was to make calendars. Astronomy rose with the development of agriculture. And of course if you are planting, you need to know when you need to plant and when you need to harvest. And this takes us to pay attention to the seasons and to try to predict the moment of the changes of the seasons. And it takes us to the theoretical astronomy which is very simple: it is about the solstice and the equinox. Some people are idealizing that, they say that we were astronomers 10.000 years ago –of course, but this was just a theoretical astronomy, it is not related with what we call today Astronomy, which is totally different. It is the same, but as a result of a thousand-years evolution. The first function was to discover the moment of change of the seasons and was related with the calendars, and the Andean tradition evolved from the lunar calendars to the solar calendar, and finally they generated the sidereal calendar which is related with the measuring the point of the stars in different times of the year. These are more precise than the lunar or the solar ones. In this case, the Inca calendars were about establishing the most important spiritual rituals, the seasons, the time of harvesting or planting, because the Andean tradition from the beginning to the end was focused in agriculture. War for us –and this is something amazing- was something totally underdeveloped. Warfare in the Inca tradition in the 16th century was alike to the European Neolithic development of the warfare. In the contrary, warfare in Spain by the time was in the top of the evolution in Europe, and this is part of the explanation of how the Incas were defeated by the Europeans, because they were a relatively peaceful society of planters who were totally alienated by a super-power. In that time Spain was a super-power in Europe, and played the same role which U.S. plays today. In that time the Spaniards were defeating the most skillful warriors of their time, the Muslims, and this military force, is the force which alienated all America.
Do you feel it is correct to keep secrets of the teachings, like in the ancient Greek mysteries? There was an oath for the initiated: an initiated should not reveal the teachings he was receiving in the mysteries. Do you feel we should protect the truth of the teachings?
dJuan – Everything is good in its own framework and in its own time. Which is the function of the secret related with the mysteries of Eleusis in Greece? This was a hierarchical society, and that put the keepers of the secrets to the top position of the society, because they were “the keepers”. If the secrets are real secrets and nobody reveals them, then they disappear. We do not need to care for secrets we will never grasp. But the most probable about the secrets is that we humans are gossipers – and of course the top priest has a secret but he is going to speak with at least one of his disciples and he is going to spread the secret, as a secret of somebody else… and the proof of that is how the secret of the mysteries of Eleusis became a part of the theology of the Catholic Church. All the mysteries, like the mystery of the incarnation of Jesus, of this and that, all the mysteries of the Catholic priests and the Rosaries, are part of the mysteries of Eleusis; but something changed. In Eleusis there is something you know and you are going to keep, as a very selfish person you are. In the Catholic Church it is the same thing but it is something you cannot understand with your limited mind. This is the meaning of the Catholic mysteries. And of course in life there are always mysteries, and the mysteries are the boundaries of our knowledge. Today there are mysteries of course: what happened in the first milliseconds after the Big Bang? This is a mystery, because nobody knows yet. Or what is outside the size of the whole universe? Where universe is growing? These are mysteries. The mysteries stimulate us and our curiosity to try to decode them, and this is the one of the functions of the mysteries then and now. Mysteries attract people. There are a lot of people of the new age which become the “keepers of the mysteries” and the curiosity of people put them there. Today, if someone is the “keeper of a mystery” you do not need to follow him, because if it is a mystery, he is not going to share it with you. When someone decides to be “a keeper of a secret”, this is a very powerful tool for marketing, because if he is the keeper of the secret everybody will be curious in learning his secret. But if you keep it really secret, it is going to disappear. If not, it is not going to be a secret any more. Do you see the paradox here? The secrets which are going to continue their existence, are the secrets which are going to be revealed. And if you are not going to reveal them, they will not survive in the culture. If there were things which the keepers of secrets of the ancient times knew and you don’t know them- it means that these secrets disappeared – why do you need to pay attention to that? You cannot recover them because nobody knows about them, and you are going to lose your time. Another thing is that the real secrets, keep themselves as secrets; which means, that the top truths discovered for humans are so subtle, that only a few people can really grasp their meaning. There is a very powerful scholar, Thomas Kuhn, the man who popularized the World of Paradigms, a famous book, which is the history of science – he showed how a hundred years after Einstein, only 40% of the scientists really understand the theory of Einstein. All the others pretend to know but they do not know, because they did not really make the effort to grasp what was in the back of this statement of Einstein. This is what I mean with the paradox. The real secret is something so subtle, that keeps itself as a secret, and it is going to be revealed only for the people who will make the real effort to understand.
You don’t feel there is a reason to protect the truth from a large number of people, like in the case of the atomic bomb?
dJuan – This is a good example. There was a small group who had the secret of that, then they decided to try it. When they tried and made the first experiment of that, the first bomb of the Manhattan project, everyone else knew the power of that secret. How long do you think that they kept this as a secret? In 1952 the secret was revealed for the first time, and went out of the power of this group. What I mean is that it is impossible to keep a secret from the humans, because if I have a brain, then you have the same capacity in your brain, and if I discover something then you –if you really search for that- will find the secret, sooner or later, because the reality is the reality. Especially in science. Nobody can hide something.
In terms of protection, in case you find something really strong, like in the example of the atomic bomb, is it possible to destroy or hide this new knowledge?
dJuan – It is impossible. You are working with facts. This was a secret from 1945 since the first bomb was used, and in 1952, seven years after, the secret spread out, that’s it. All these people who say that “scientists are hiding this or that”, are really people who do not know or never participate in a team of real scientists. Scientists are looking for truth, and immediately they find something they will check with their colleagues, and spread the whole thing and write an article etc. In the contemporary science, if someone finds something important, you can be sure that in 24 hours this is going to be known at least by another scientist – and if somebody else knows, then it is not a secret anymore.
When a scientist does not only communicate in mathematical and physical terms, but also speaks influenced by an ancient tradition, can he be considered credible or is he disregarded as peculiar?
Iván – Science is an ancient tradition, to start. We have been known science for a long time. But the spirit of science is very precise. It requires of course, as you say, logic and mathematics to be able to present your ideas, but it also requires a really big quality, which is humility. If you are humble enough, you submit your hypothesis to the Nature, if this is a scientific experiment, and then you receive confirmation, or not, from Nature. Nature can say “yes” or “no” about what you think, it could be beautifully presented, perfectly logical but false. And then when Nature says it is not OK, you have to throw away your ideas and start all over again. The thing is, as far as you are still checking with Nature over and over again, you are still a scientist. If you are just based on ideas and stay detached from the experiment, and you continue building logical ideas, then you are not a scientist any more. Because, in order to be a scientist you need to have the humility and submit your ideas to Nature; to check with her. If you stop doing that, you are not a scientist any more. And usually science will present and explain the findings in the most simple and precise possible way, but it will never make them more simple than they really are. Usually, when you are not any more in the science, the things you are trying to explain will be more ornamented, and become more complicated but not necessarily true. But as far as you are having a research, you are there. Now, these people you have mentioned, well in general the scientific people are special people and they tend to be qualified like “odd”, “special”, “different”. But, as far as you keep the discipline with the science, and you have in mind the rules of science, you are OK. If you got lost, it is because you were disconnected with those rules, and then you are wrong; of course it is possible but it is not science any more. But science is a very ancient tradition, so it is not about the age of the tradition but of how much you are in touch, and you respect the rules with discipline of what you follow.
So it is a different language of spirituality?
Iván – Science is a start in something that is not necessarily spirituality. It is the mind and the matter, but eventually when you are very deep in science and you go very deep in matter, you are going to start finding some traces of the fact of the existence of the spirit. And then, if you really go deep in science, you cannot do without it, because there are certain things that are going to need something spiritual to come true. But this is if when we go very ahead in the development of science. In the old times it was not possible to be a scientist and believer. Today it is. And the biggest scientists believe, they practice religions and spirituality, because they are not opposite. They follow two different disciplines: one is the discipline of the spirit, the other one is the discipline of the truth. In certain point they can touch, this is true, but to be a scientist you don’t have to be a spiritual person. Or, you don’t have to not be a spiritual person. It doesn’t matter.